Episode 1 – Welcome to the Podcast

Welcome to the inaugural episode of the What’s Your Baseline podcast. We’re glad that you join us!

In this episode we are talking about us -your hosts Roland Woldt and J-M Erlendson– and our journeys in enterprise architecture and business process management, so that you get familiar with our voices and background. 

It also covers the challenges that we’ve seen when clients want to stand up these capabilities, as well as “being the newbie” on a program – be it as a new employee, a new consultant, or simply just being exposed to these topics for the first time. 

Lastly, we also talk about this new podcast – why we started it, what you can expect, when new episodes will be published, and a general overview of season 1.

Please reach out to us by either sending an email to hello@whatsyourbaseline.com or leaving us a voice message by clicking here.

Additional information

• https://www.countermeasuremusic.com/
• https://www.beatsyncmusic.com/

Credits

Music by Jeremy Voltz, www.jeremyvoltzmusic.com

• Lobby Loop (Intro)
• CP1 (Welcome)
• Airplane Seatbelt (Interlude)
• South Wing (Outro)

---

Transcript

(The transcript is auto-generated and was slightly edited for clarity)

Roland: The majority of large system implementations fail. That might be because of lack of scope, lack of focus, lack of knowing what you’re doing.

J-M: That sounds scary, but we’re here to help provide a little bit more information about what we’ve done in the past to make this successful, and how you can avoid some of the common pitfalls that you might be faced with in your everyday work wherever you are.

Roland: This is episode one of a new podcast that you’re listening to and I hope we got you on the hook for it. In this episode you learn a little bit more about your hosts, J-M and myself, and we’re going to look at EA and BPM as a discipline and how we got there. And then you will learn a little bit about this new thing – the podcast that you’re listening to, and what you can expect from us in season one.

J-M: So you’ll become comfortable with our voices and our message and ultimately be able to put into practice the lessons you learn in our future episodes. So today, hey, welcome to the podcast. Tomorrow, let’s get to work.

INTRO

Roland: Hey J-M, how are you doing today?

J-M: Not too bad, Roland. How are you doing?

Roland: I’m doing fine, so let’s get started with the first one. J-M, talk a little bit about you. How did you get into BPM and what are you doing?

J-M: Well thanks, thanks so much Roland. And as you are right, this is our very first episode. Welcome to the What’s Your Baseline podcast. I’m J-M Erlendson, a transformation engineering lead and I work at Software AG, a major platform vendor for business process management tools. And I’m really excited. 

I’ve spent the last decade and a half practicing business process, excellence and process improvement across the world. Working for companies small as a couple of practitioners to some of the Fortune 500 you’d recognize these household names. Both as a management consultant and as part of the solution engineering group at Software AG. So it’s been a fantastic opportunity for me to practice my craft with people on the ground level. The clients and practitioners who need to know things. But this is our first episode of What’s Your Baseline – an opportunity to spread our message over the internet. Where we have a lot of opportunity to communicate with practitioners like you, who might want to know a little bit more about why we do what we do and how we can do it. 

And Roland, tell me a little bit more about yourself. How are you doing? How are you excited about this podcast and tell me more about your background?

Roland: Well, yeah, of course I’m excited. Having that idea for this thing and finally sitting in front of a microphone and chatting with you and getting it recorded is obviously awesome.

But to your question, I work at Software AG as well – together with J-M in the same group since last November. But before that I have about 25 years of experience working in Big Four organizations. [I] worked for KPMG for quite a couple of years, ran their EA group there. Worked at Accenture. Worked at Software AG’s consulting arm for, I don’t know, ten years or so and ran the EA group there as well. So I bring a little bit of practical experience in our field and I’m looking forward to talking with you.

J-M: A little bit of practical experience, Roland? 

I remember back in the day you used to be my manager back in the day when at the professional services department. That was lots of fun. And now we’re making a podcast together. Isn’t this wonderful?

Roland: Here you go. So talk a little bit about your past experience, what brought you to this topic? Why are you interested in that? Why BPM? Why EA?

J-M: Oh yeah, that’s a great question. I started out sort of innocuously enough. I was a process engineering major in college, and I really got to know and love the idea of how to analyze and break down companies. I actually worked for a hospital when I was in my graduate studies and watching how you could document out the way in which procedures are done and processes are executed by different practitioners and their handoffs, particularly in a lifesaving context that really. That enlightened me to the need for that to drive improvement across just organizations and to give people, really humans, handle on what they have to do to make things better. 

And so I started moving into management consulting. So I worked from there and worked for a couple of different clients – both public and private – through the management consulting gig and discovered that there was so much missing in terms of the way in which people documented information. The way they shared it with others. The way they were able to use it for analysis and decision-making. That it really was a revelation to them when we said: “Hey, let’s make a regimented practice”. And so I moved from management consulting over to professional services and eventually solution engineering at a platform vendor. The one that I was using when I was working in management consulting, which is Software AG, and I used the ARIS platform for the past ten years. This decade working at some of some really pretty major, major companies helping to set up best practices for them, helping to establish centers of excellence, helping them to configure and manage their language and methodology by which they work on things.

And that’s taken me around the country – I’m from Canada – and around North America and even around the world talking to folks who want to take this message and spread it within their organization and see the value and benefit from it. So it’s been a really interesting journey and I’m excited to continue it with you online. 

I know you’ve got a ton of really interesting experiences. I think a while ago you mentioned to me you had worked in the armed forces? I’m assuming in process management?

Roland: Well, actually I did it in both ways. I served almost 11 years as an officer in the German armed forces , driving around with main battle tanks and having nothing to do with computers. So that was [in] “the good old days way-back-when” – through reunification. So for the young kids on the line, that’s about 30 years ago. And a little bit later on when I joined a company that was bought by Software AG in the 2000s I was working on a huge SAP implementation with the German armed forces. So, interesting enough, it’s just like any other organization, except everybody wears blue shirts. That makes it a little bit easier and more uniform in there, but obviously the topics were the same. 

 How do we get our processes straight? How do we get requirements for our SAP implementations? How do we rationalize the application landscape that we have here? Where do we want to spend our money? What’s the biggest bang for our buck in this case?

I have that history and then, this was the first contact I had with process management way-back-when, I worked at Accenture at a large project with the Deutsche Bahn, the German railway system, and they they were using ARIS as their process documentation tool.

And everybody said: “Oh, don’t touch it, don’t touch it. You can break something”. And that basically sparked my interest. You know. , to see, well, that’s interesting. it seems to be fragile – let’s see what it is . And that was in 97, that was ARIS 3 and it was really, really ugly compared to today. And, yeah, the rest is history as they say.

J-M: Well, of course, listen, if someone says you don’t want to touch it, otherwise you’re breaking it. What’s the first thing an engineer is going to do?

Roland: Of course, you’re going to have a look at it.

J-M: Break out the hammer, see what cracks. I’ve got a question for you. A little secret question. What’s harder: the clients when you’re in the German armed forces or clients when you’re in private industry?

Roland: Ahh, there is no difference.

J-M: Oh, interesting, alright.

Roland: That’s the interesting thing. One would expect it’s like a strict hierarchy. the boss says “do this” and then everybody follows. No – It’s the same games that you see in other organizations. So there’s not a big difference, even though everybody would say “Yes, Sir”. And then think they’re part of it, so that’s not a big difference either. 

And of course, it’s also an interesting phenomenon, when you go in there as a consultant because they pay for you. Right? So therefore your opinion and what you say is way much worth than what anybody else says. Which I think is ridiculous because everybody has a brain and good ideas. And the best idea should win.

J-M: Yeah, the best idea should win. And also I feel like we’re going to talk about this a little bit in the podcast, but also data should drive innovation, should drive insight, and ultimately decision-making. I feel like right now there’s a ton of soft skills based decision-making. If I can put it in such an industry that we’re seeing. We’re going to be challenging a lot of those expectations and preconceived notions through the podcast. 

But before we get to that, I’d love to know a little bit more about you. And I think we want to talk a little bit about ourselves. Outside of the context of work, we’re not just the friendly voices telling you what’s best in business, process management and enterprise architecture. Also, people who love different things. 

For instance, besides this gig, I have another gig [where] I run a music company where we make acapella music and I’m in a couple of different bands. Countermeasure, Beat Sync, Rock Singers and we sing all over the world. So when I’m not making conversation with executives from Fortune 500 companies. I’m making conversation with thousands of people in stadiums and in parks as part of the performing that I do. I quite enjoy that and I love music as part of what we do. So you’re going to hear a little bit of music on this podcast. Of course it’s going to be influenced by Roland and my tastes and loving things. 

And, Roland, tell me a little bit about you. What are your other interests?

Roland: Well, before I get to talk about that, I – obviously – highly recommend listening to J-M’s recording.

J-M: Oh, thank you.

Roland: We’re going to put some links to the websites and the recordings in the show notes, and I highly, highly recommend to look at it.

J-M: Ah, thanks.

Roland: So, compared to you, J-M, absolutely boring, right? So I’m a middle aged man – living in Northern Virginia. And, as you might have heard with my accent, I come from the Fatherland – I’m a German. I’ve worked my first forty years in Germany and then moved to the US in 2007. And when you think about my interests, it’s basically two words – “coffee and motorcycles”. And you can see and decide for yourself what do you think is more important and what not. So I like both. And today this morning I had both.

J-M: Hopefully in that order, not just motoring motorcycles first and then you wake up with the coffee.

Roland: It was: motorcycle, drive to a cafe, have a coffee, up on the motorcycle, drive back home to do this recording with you.

J-M: Ah well, that sounds like a wonderful day so far. Let’s keep it going. Let’s make it even better.

Roland: So, speaking of which, J-M, what are your bucket list items, if you will?

J-M: Sure, I do a lot of things. I do a lot of travel. I love traveling the world. It’s been a passion of mine, actually something I’ve been doing since very, very young. I was on my first plane at six months old. I’ve never stopped. 

And on my bucket list, number one is walking the pilgrimage in Shikoku in Japan on the island of Shikoku. It’s a bunch of temples you walk between – it’s usually a pretty long walk. We’re talking, like, 40 to 50 days. I don’t know how I’m gonna get the time off work, but I’’ll make it work. and it’s going to be a really fun time to experience sort of being in the moment, being in nature, being outside and really getting on your feet for a good period of time. And it could be a good opportunity to reflect, particularly after the crazy year we’ve all had now. 

And speaking about taking time to reflect what are you looking to do with your on your bucket list of items?

Roland: Yeah, crazy and COVID and all that stuff besides, I also like to travel. So one of my bucket list items is to pick up my Jeep and just drive down the Pan American highway down to Argentina and Chile, which obviously is quite a trip. You estimate about 6 to 12 months for this and you have to ship your car to South America. So there’s no direct way to drive because there’s a thing called Darien Gap between Panama and Colombia. So it’s quite a logistical effort, and obviously you want to coordinate that with your employer that you’re out of office for some extended time, and we’ll see if and when we make it happen.

J-M: I was thinking 40 to 50 days and you were thinking 6 to 12 months,

Roland: Yeah, it is quite a bit. 

J-M: Well, I’m glad we’re making this podcast as a record of our thoughts, feelings and best practices so that when you’re out of the office we can replay it for our clients and maybe they’ll get the same insights.

Roland: Yeah, the good news is we can. We can record podcasts on the road. So you, my dear listeners, will not notice a difference, except for whatever background noises and what not. We’ll see.

J-M: Well, that leads us to the first of what we’re doing today on our questions in the practice of business process management and enterprise architecture. 

Now let’s start with the beginning for people’s experiences. You’re obviously here listening to this podcast because you want to know a little bit more about what it is and why it works, but I want you to think about and maybe even take out a piece of paper and write down and reflect on your memories of the first time you discovered anything around these letters: BPA, EA, BPM. What caught your attention? What are your three … might have three memories or first thoughts about what came to mind when you heard those letters or were asked to think about those topics?

[Music playing]

J-M: Alright, that’s time folks. Well, thank you so much for writing some things down, but I’d actually like to find out a little bit more about you, Roland. What are three things you remember about your first time discovering BPA or enterprise architecture? What feelings do they conjure in you and what inspired you to get into the field as a result of those things?

Roland: Well, as I said before it was that project with the Deutsche Bahn where I got first exposed to it, and I thought it’s really interesting because that project was about standing up a greenfield organization. So they had to figure out: “what are we going to do?”. It was the time of the privatization of the Bahn, the railway system, and they just needed to figure out what they wanted to do. And obviously a process management tool was a godsend for them.

That was one thing where I first got exposed to it, even though at that time I was working, believe it or not, in the change management group of Accenture, talking with people and how to communicate things, which obviously has a benefit when you have your processes and your architecture being documented. And at some point when you implement something new, you can answer simple questions like “what has changed?” Which is also always an evergreen, because in most implementations I work with, it was like “yeah, the business people said: I can tell you what happened in the old system” and the system integrator came and said: “yeah, I can tell you what the tool can do”. But both never come together. And I’ve been on projects that actually failed because of that? Because they couldn’t manage the scope correctly.

J-M: Almost been quite a relief to have that kind of … discipline in place to make sure that you could answer whatever questions came up and be able to see a source of truth. For that knowledge .

Roland: If people take it seriously. Most of the clients I’ve worked with unfortunately say: “Oh yeah, yeah. Let’s just diagram something and we move on. It’s more important we get the running system, right?”. And then later on, imagine if you have an enterprise-wide software like an SAP system, for example, there’s obviously dependencies – between the different modules to each other.

So you start with one module. You take your best guess. You make the best decisions that you could, with all the caveats that your stakeholders, that you should work with, might not be available. So you as the implementer make a decision for them, right, and sell it as: “Oh yeah, this is the best design whatever”. And then you fast forward, and then that second module comes in and you haven’t realized what are the dependencies between those two. So your decision, that either you as the implementer, or you as the stakeholder in module one has done, does not match or conceptually might be out of whack with what module two would see.

And this is one of the biggest things that I’ve seen in SAP implementations or in overall enterprise software implementations as well. And that brought me to the point: “Hey, it might be useful to not only look at individual aspects, you map out your application landscape, or whatever, right? But see it as holistic. whole thing”. 

You  know, you go and you have your processes that are driven by strategy. And unfortunately most clients don’t have an idea what they’re in there. It’s very fuzzy, and then [you] map out your processes, map out your organization and what the impact is for your roles and how you structure and restructure. Which for Deutsche Bahn was a godsend because you had to figure out “how do we organize?”. And then the same thing for applications, and data, and whatnot. And that basically was what created the interest in me to go into this field and hang in there for 25 years.

But how was that for you in this? How did  you get into these topics? And why do you still hang in there?

J-M: Why do I still hang in there? Well, that’s a good question.

Roland: Besides your paycheck.

J-M: Well, the truth of the matter is that I see it kind of like you do, as the connective tissue that brings all the aspects of the organization together to help reveal them, help you understand them, help you communicate them, and help you make decisions on them. When I first discovered BPA was actually very early in college prior to any sort of work that I had done. I took a course on process management and in that course it revealed to me the way in which you conceptualize information. Of course, it was all just documents and flowcharts, but it least gave me some visual reference that helped me explain things better, both to my friends and also to myself. Sort of, I’m a very visual learner and that was my first touch and the first thing I thought to myself is oh, this is way easier than trying to talk it through. All this is way easier, I can just show you a picture and this will explain it. And it came about again as I was in school, my parents’ business – they were undergoing a sale of the business, they wanted to get out and retire. And one of the things I did for them was help to outline how their small little business worked and who they interacted with, what things they needed along the way and it forced me to ask questions that were ingrained through the discipline that I’d gotten in the college course. Which is: “OK. So who does this? What information do I need to be able to do this thing, or what resources do I have to have in place? Are you using any systems?”. And these are all questions that come up organically if you’re trained, or your thinking is aligned to the different elements that contribute – the context under which process happens.

And then in my professional career, one of my first really big successes was working with an organization here in Canada. A hydro electric company that was focused on power transmission and similar to a lot of people who work on ERP implementations. They were reimplementing SAP and they wanted to see how the whole chain stuck together from inventory management, sourcing, procurement, down all the way to operations. And that was only possible because we were able to segment the information by different groups and how they were operating. Tie them together through their impact analysis and ultimately be able to make decisions on this holistic vision you talked about before. And the word relief is really a thing. 

I was hearing that a little bit in what you were telling, but I gotta tell you as a junior on a project, when you’re tasked to know a lot of things, I worked in QA and for the for the process management and process design, and it was a huge aspect of relief for me to be able to have everything at my fingertips and be able to understand what I needed to do at every point in time. And that was only achievable through good practices and good centers of excellence and competency, and ultimately a platform that brought information together. And that’s where I first learned about the practice, really, in a professional capacity. And developed my skills and developed my passion for this.

Roland: Yeah, I remember those times when I was junior and the newbie in place and the pain you go through because they are so high expectations. You know, “we’re going to pay X amount of dollars for you: now deliver”. And you’re just thinking like “holy crap, what am I doing here”.

And there’s that internal competition and you don’t want to ask people. Yes, I completely understand that situation, even though it’s ages ago.

J-M: Speaking out ages ago, you started What’s Your Baseline? So tell us a little bit more about that. And why don’t we talk about what this is?

Roland: The idea was that there is a need in, quote unquote, the market right? So there is a discipline out there when you look at it – and we will have another whole episode talking about how the discipline of EA and the discipline of BPM came together and why it’s important. But when I look at this, there is obviously a continuous need because there’s always new people that join the party – just like you and I way back when being – as junior people and having to learn something. And I just looked around and I didn’t find anything.

There were a handful of EA podcasts and they stopped after Episode 4. Or went into some super geeky space that’s not consumable for non geeks. I couldn’t find a lot of websites on that topic. 

What you see is the vendor communities, and this might end up in “I have a problem with installing your tool.” Instead of reaching out to the support, these types of things. But what I have not found was a place where people talk about the discipline and that is another thing that I think [is] very important to say: “Yep, if we want to do this in a professional way, we obviously should have a discipline that describes how to do things. Where you have a lively conversation around how to improve and push things forward. And the big mistake that EAs did – defining standards and all that type of stuff”, which was 10, 15 years ago, the big bad thing.

J-M: Correct me if I’m wrong here, but you’ve worked in a lot of organizations where the teams end up being deliverable, focused, right? There’s not a lot of strategy around it. It’s literally just: “Hey, somebody asked us to make a thing. Let’s go make that thing and I don’t know if there’s any value in this at all”. 

I’m assuming, and I’m hearing from you as well, that establishing strategy, establishing best practices, establishing a routine in a center of competence? I mean, those are ways we can turn around these deliverables focused organizations and initiatives into strategic initiatives – into sustainable initiatives and ultimately into better business practices for organizations we work with and for anyone who would like to come in and listen to this podcast and learn some lessons from it.

Roland: You need the openness of a client to do this. And I’ve worked on projects where they put a huge effort into creating documentation, , with macros and what not, and then you had your ERP implementation and you hand over the 700 page print out of the documentation and say “Hey, Mr Client, here’s my documentation”. And everybody in that game – everybody – knows nobody will ever read this, right? 

So the question is: how can you produce something that, quote unquote, lives? That will be used? And this is one of the interesting things in architecture and architecture tools, you can use those artifacts for additional purposes. Like training. Like communication. What has changed? As I mentioned before, you could use it for job aids, you can use it for planning purposes and so on.

But anyway, to come back to your question, why What’s Your Baseline? That was one of the reasons where I saw a need, a gap in the market. And then when you ask about the name “What’s Your Baseline” – well, that comes obviously from the project management discipline, because when you do your project plan you have an initial cut, which is your baseline, and then you obviously adapt your project plan going forward.

The other reason for the name is also when you think about architecture in general, and improvement stuff in general. Well guess what? You need a baseline where to start to show what is the improvement? How did we change over time? Did we reach our objectives (that’s the strategy aspect here)? Did we reach this in the time that we wanted? Did we get the business outcome that we expected? And this is also – and we will talk about that later in another episode – it’s also the old “how do I measure the practice? How do I know when I’m successful?”. And then people come up with KPIs like “Oh yeah, how many trainings did we do in this project?” 

No, that’s not relevant. What is relevant is six months after the project has ended and you went live and you reorganized and you put in a new system through those changes, make an impact. Is our bottom line better? Are our customers more happy? Is the operations of our shop floor or retail store more efficient? Those are the metrics that you look at. And looking at this – and the EA discipline is 30 odd years old – I haven’t seen anyone who came up with a good set of criteria. So dear listeners, if you made it up to here: If you have your ideas, hey, please let us know in the comments. Reach out to us and I will give you more information the end of this episode.

J-M: Yeah, it sounds to me like, correct me if I’m wrong, Roland, but it sounds like that you’re looking to start people on the right path. And of course their circumstances, their clients, their organization, those circumstances are going to be different person to person, organization or organization. That’s totally fine. 

But What’s Your Baseline is helping to equip you with the tools and the mindset required to approach each new situation with a discipline and a practice that allows it to be in some ways solved through enterprise architecture, through business process management best practices and approaches. What you’re doing, how to know which questions to ask, and how to respond to the answers you get.

Roland: Yeah, that’s a very good point, but, J-M, talk a little bit about this podcast . And I know we spoke about different seasons and content of those seasons. Obviously this is season one episode one.

J-M: Yes.

Roland: Talk a little bit about season one. What it is, what you can expect as a listener. What are the major topics that we’re gonna cover?

J-M: Yeah, absolutely. Season one is meant to set you up and give you some ideas of where we’re coming from. Obviously we can’t cover everything right off the bat, but we want to answer some quite big questions and challenge your assumptions and ideas. Things like: Why does architecture matter? Why does business process management matter? What were those disciplines about and how do we address – early in our sort of evolution – how do we address the challenges that those present and the opportunities that those allow? 

And then: How do we achieve that? What sort of platforms and tooling and different technologies can we use to get better at this and to automate a lot of the things that could become really sources of work and manual effort? And how do you select how to move forward with those and implement them? Particularly not only the context of an organization, but also in the context of a project. So we’re going to talk about large scale implementations and how to build in practices and technologies to make those go better and faster and with less risk to you and your organization

We’re also going to address some interesting conversations and thoughts around methodologies, approaches, practices and visualizations and notations. How do I communicate ideas? What do those ideas look like and how do I bring people together around those ideas, so that they can see on the page something that intuitively means something to them? So that’s going to be a good chunk of what we’re talking about at the beginning of the season. But Roland, then we’re going to start talking with people and data. Tell me a little bit more about how that’s going to work in the latter half of the season?

Roland: We do. So the idea is not, dear listeners, that you just listen to the friendly conversation that J-M and I have, which I hope you enjoy. But we obviously have a couple of topics identified that need to be worked out in more detail, and a couple of topics that we will have guests in our show.

So we are looking to talk with practitioners and people with a similar experience who might run their own shop or might be part of a larger organization. And the first of two topics that come into mind is the topic of Agile / Scaled Agile and architecture. Are they mutually exclusive or do they belong together? And we have a guest lined up who will talk with us about that topic.

Or the other big topic, that is currently really hot in our industry: process mining. So we’re happy that – hopefully – we get one of the product managers of one of the major vendors here to get his perspective. 

The idea is to have a good mix between J-M and I doing a conversation around a certain topic, but then mix in different interviews with experts from the field that then give their different perspectives. Or maybe they agree with us, who knows.

J-M: So Roland, we’re actually doing both podcasts and live interviews in conversations. But what can our audience expect in terms of timelines? So where should one be looking out for the What’s Your Baseline podcasts and how long is season one?

Roland: So obviously when you’re listening to this episode, you’ve made it! You’ve made it into August. That’s the idea that we have – to go live in early August 2021, and then the idea is to have a bi-weekly schedule. Every other Monday (most likely) we’re going to have a new episode ready for you, so that on your morning commute – when we all are allowed to go back to the office – on a Monday morning you have something to listen to. 

We’re planning about twelve episodes per season. If you do the math, we’re going to end season one sometime in December and we’ll have a little break over the holidays and then we’ll have another five months series starting in January. Have a little break in summer, Fourth of July and all that wonderful vacation that everybody has, and then have hopefully a season three in fall with a similar schedule that we have this year.

J-M: But of course, this is all going to rely on you, our wonderful listeners subscribing to the podcast, joining in in the conversation and giving us great feedback.

Roland: So yeah, thanks J-M. This brings us to the end of this episode. We spoke a little bit about who we are, how we got into the field of architecture and process management, and some high level experience. And we spoke about what this podcast is about. And by the way, we also have an accompanying website where you find articles a little bit more frequently – every week, we hope – so that you get something to read as well. 

Thank you for listening to this show. We’re all learning. We’re all learning together on this. I hope you find it interesting. 

Reach out to us! The best way to do this is either shoot us an email at hello@whatsyourbaseline.com or leave us a voice message. We’re going to put a link into the show notes. And if you like, leave a rating and a review in your podcatcher of choice wherever you listen to this and hopefully you see us on our website. Whatsyourbaseline.com. And hopefully we’re gonna hear each other the next time.

J-M: That would be wonderful. Once again I am J-M Erlendson.

Roland: And I’m Roland Woldt.

J-M: And we’ll see you in the next one.